Magnificent. Then let's update our diagram a bit — I understand this may seem tedious in terms of laying the groundwork, but we're quickly coming to the point.
Now then, as you can see, we've altered the black "universe" line somewhat to better reflect the way that each individual universe tracks to a particular Dave's decisions. That's because according to the theory of infinite universes, there DO EXIST both of those universes, separate and discrete from each other; in Dave 1's universe, all of Dave 1's decisions are the "correct" decisions for that universe, and in Dave 2's universe, all of Dave 2's decisions are "correct" for that universe.
In summation, every Dave IS the "Alpha Dave" to his own universe (Daveiverse?), which means that the determination of a Dave being an Alpha Dave or not must be considered RELATIVE to the universe he is standing in.
Dave 1 is only the Alpha Dave of his own universe. In Dave 2's universe, Dave 1 is an other, because his decisions do not track seamlessly to the decisions that the universe defines as "Dave's Decisions" (aka Dave 2's decisions, because this is Dave 2's universe in which he is the Alpha Dave to that universe).
alright i have no objections to any of these premises and the new diagram clears up what i was confused about before im down for the next step if you are
Excellent. We're coming to the crux of the matter.
Now, for the purposes of discussion, let's deal only with Dave 1's universe, or the universe in which the Alpha Timeline dictates that "Dave" chose "yes" at our marked point of divergence. As you can see, his decisions are still tracking accordingly with the universe.
However, let's now suppose that Dave 2 leaves his universe and jumps into Dave 1's universe. This is where Dave 2 will begin to have a problem, because:
At any given point on the timeline past the divergence point, Dave 2's internal memories of his experiences will conflict with what the universe dictates his experience "should be". At the juncture point, Dave 2 chose "no" — but the universe dictates that "Dave chose yes".
At this point, what follows is a conflict, in which the universe impresses memories of experiences upon Dave 2 that differ from the experiences that Dave 2 remembers from his own universe. Or, put another way, a given universe recognizes only one Dave, and will therefore treat all Daves within that universe as the Alpha Dave, regardless of whether that Dave IS the Alpha Dave or not.
Thus, Universe 1 treats Dave 1 as the Alpha Dave (which he is), and as there is no conflict between Dave 1 and the universe's treatment of him, Dave 1 remains unscathed. However, Universe 1 ALSO treats Dave 2 as the Alpha Dave (which he is not), because for every universe there is only one discrete Dave, and therefore all Daves within that universe must by extension be That Dave.
But Dave 2 is not the Alpha Dave, despite the universe treating him as such. Thus, Dave 2 is now bombarded with two divergent sets of memories and experiences, both of which are "correct" — even though the nature of a yes/no decision is that both cannot be "correct" simultaneously.
Dave 2 is therefore left to reconcile the experience of having chosen both yes and no at the same juncture, remembering events that he both did and did not do. The human mind is not equipped to handle that level of juxtaposition, and the negative effects of the experience on the mind are usually both immediate and dramatic.
It's a largely theoretical field of study, I'm afraid; as there've not been many proven cases of individuals leaping into parallel universes and experiencing the effects of that juxtaposition, we've only really established what we can, and hypothesized by extension about the rest.
But my preliminary guess would be, if your immunity to the phenomenon is simply a natural condition of your universe, then it may also follow that the immunity is a constant in EVERY universe. If that's the case, then part of what makes a Dave a Dave to begin with is the fact that he can navigate parallel universes as he pleases with impunity.
...Which is FASCINATING to consider, if that's truly the case.
thats one possible reason though i think thats less a defining daveristic and more a feature native to any sburb or sgrub player our set of universes were at a really primary level interconnected and interdependent and we all did our fair share of shuffling around from timeline to timeline and/or world to world maybe coming from a universe whose parameters allow for multiple instances of a single variable (eg a dave or a potted plant) to exist simultaneously at least temporarily means that my existence doesnt feel that pressure to conform to any given universes alpha dave
i also dont think ruby city is necessarily a real universe it feels more like a "space" between real constructs of time and space than a proper world all of its own you get me? so i dont think it has its own alpha dave or has the ability to record what an alpha dave should be and thus cant force that alpha daveness on any daves who show up
Actually, it makes a great deal of sense — and also explains why the phenomenon doesn't appear to be in effect here at all. If a given universe HAS no parameters to define a Dave, then it follows that there are no parameters to impress upon any Dave that enters into it.
However, the part I find curious is that as this city behaves like an empty container, that also means it's not recording a history to impress upon any subsequent iterations of you. You're not being bombarded with memories of interactions with people that you never conducted, even though a different version of you did, are you?
nope the closest thing to that ive experienced is when one of those people talks about conversations they never had with me and thats just your garden variety socioexistential awkwardness but im also used to that what with all my time travel
yeah i showed her some of what i can do but mostly on the stable time loop side of things we havent gone over doomed timelines and how those work for me im not sure she knows i can do those too if im not careful
so within box one here ive got a couple examples of stable time loops black is the normal course of time and red is my personal timeline (im using red instead of blue for stable daves cause i like red better) basically past me is going along minding my own business when suddenly EY YO heres a future me come back to let me know i left the oven on past me goes oh snap and bounces to go enact basic fire safety while future me continues on his merry way in the present eventually past me will reach on his own personal timeline the point where he becomes future me and thus goes back to warn HIS past me about the oven so theres a stretch of time in which there are two mes hanging out in the same timeline but both of them are the alpha me because theyre both uh me like theres no divergent experiences theres just a doubling over of my narrative thread the thread is still one thread ive just put in a stitch fair?
...Give me a moment, I'm going to try to sort the business of the oven out.
So for the very first Dave, prior to the creation of the stable time loop, the oven was left on up until the point when the Dave designated as F!Dave realized it had been left on.
F!Dave then set out to remedy that problem by traveling back in time to a point shortly after the oven was left on, confronting P!Dave and alerting him to the staples of basic fire safety.
This initial first encounter has now both created a stable time loop but also collapsed the entire universe that followed from the possibility of the oven staying on. That is to say, Alpha Dave has the capacity to..."prune" possible offshoots to preserve and DEFINE the alpha timeline, is that correct?
actually no because that very first dave is the exact same animal as past dave just further along in both normal and my personal time so he also had a future dave come back to tell him he left the oven on the important thing about a stable time loop is that im NOT changing anything every time im going back in time to make something happen is something that has already happened from my perspective so p!dave always goes back to turn off the oven because f!dave always LOOPS back to tell him hes a calamitous dumbfuck this is really really really important stable time loops dont change shit
...So no Dave actually independently generated the decision to go back and warn himself about the left-on oven. That decision was always predicated on his experience, in the past, of himself coming back and warning him to do it — and by extension, defining his future such that he, too, will have to go back and satisfy that condition when he reaches that future point.
...One moment.
For ease of comprehension, I'm going to examine the timeline only up until the point when the Future Dave appears. Tell me if I have this correct.
Effectively, the universe has dictated that at this definite point in its timeline, a Future Dave will appear to the Dave of that present moment and warn him of the oven. There will always be a Dave. There will always be an oven. There will always be a prevented fire.
But by definition it cannot have been any Dave's DECISION to go back and prevent the oven fire, because rendering a decision at all would involve the possibility of a divergent universe. On the contrary, the universe simply stipulates that a Dave must appear from the future at this point in time — leaving you, the Dave of the present, to satisfy that condition at some point after you've proceeded beyond that point in time in the overall timestream.
...Does it not follow, then, that no Dave can be said to have free will?
its complicated the answer is no but yes? i mean theres never going to be a future where i make a decision i would never make and obviously the whole infinite timelines thing means everythings always branching off infinitely so i do make every decision i COULD make but isnt this the case for anyone? once theres a future perspective doesnt that lock everyone into their present actions whether theyre aware of it or not i dont know man this is getting into philosophical territory that made me stop using my powers for a damn long time cause i got really depressed about it
nah its ok i mean its literally a thing i struggled with for years and never got a satisfying answer to since it freaked thirteen year old me out too much to think about head on at least while i was a kid anyway the peace i make with it now is that im committed to doing things i WANT to do instead of things i think i have to do so it doesnt matter whether or not i chose to because i at least WOULD choose it anyway do i have to explain the second drawing inside box number one its just an illustration of multiple time loops at once thats how you can get thirteen versions of me existing in one slice of actual time yet theyre still all alpha me theyre just on different points on my personal timeline
I follow, yes. The same Dave can appear in two places at once (or multiple places at once) in the same "slice of time" (I like that conception of it very much, actually), but only because each Dave that appears represents a commitment to return back to that given slice of time at some point in his future, anywhere in his future.
Perhaps that's a concise summation of it. Every additional Dave that appears in a given point in time represents a commitment to BE that Dave at some point in your future. Yes?
...Oh. Oh, clever, because the both of us are — Ro-Lute, I see. Not unlike Ro-Lal, but more particular to us.
Moving on!
To change things would prevent events from remaining technically linear, I presume is the complication. As we've been discussing, changes create divergences.
yeah so the basic structure of what im thinking of looks something like this
since the nature of my powers is still technically linear its not like i skedaddle laterally to a parallel timeline i mean ive never tried that so i dont know if i even could if so id be jumping blind and that sounds like a completely dunderheaded thing to do its more natural and definitely safer and confirmed possible for me to wind back to a moment just before whatever event it is im trying to change so before the point of divergence
Edited (Okay that's more readable) 2017-04-02 21:43 (UTC)
...What is the small blue explosion there on the alpha timeline?
I see the Dave of the "doomed timeline" goes back to before the divergence and counsels himself to continue on in a manner consistent with the Alpha Timeline, but then it seems he follows the Alpha Timeline for a spell until...?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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thats how i understand alpha dave works
so what about dave 2
1/2
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Now then, as you can see, we've altered the black "universe" line somewhat to better reflect the way that each individual universe tracks to a particular Dave's decisions. That's because according to the theory of infinite universes, there DO EXIST both of those universes, separate and discrete from each other; in Dave 1's universe, all of Dave 1's decisions are the "correct" decisions for that universe, and in Dave 2's universe, all of Dave 2's decisions are "correct" for that universe.
In summation, every Dave IS the "Alpha Dave" to his own universe (Daveiverse?), which means that the determination of a Dave being an Alpha Dave or not must be considered RELATIVE to the universe he is standing in.
Dave 1 is only the Alpha Dave of his own universe. In Dave 2's universe, Dave 1 is an other, because his decisions do not track seamlessly to the decisions that the universe defines as "Dave's Decisions" (aka Dave 2's decisions, because this is Dave 2's universe in which he is the Alpha Dave to that universe).
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i have no objections to any of these premises
and the new diagram clears up what i was confused about before
im down for the next step if you are
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Now, for the purposes of discussion, let's deal only with Dave 1's universe, or the universe in which the Alpha Timeline dictates that "Dave" chose "yes" at our marked point of divergence. As you can see, his decisions are still tracking accordingly with the universe.
However, let's now suppose that Dave 2 leaves his universe and jumps into Dave 1's universe. This is where Dave 2 will begin to have a problem, because:
At any given point on the timeline past the divergence point, Dave 2's internal memories of his experiences will conflict with what the universe dictates his experience "should be". At the juncture point, Dave 2 chose "no" — but the universe dictates that "Dave chose yes".
At this point, what follows is a conflict, in which the universe impresses memories of experiences upon Dave 2 that differ from the experiences that Dave 2 remembers from his own universe. Or, put another way, a given universe recognizes only one Dave, and will therefore treat all Daves within that universe as the Alpha Dave, regardless of whether that Dave IS the Alpha Dave or not.
Thus, Universe 1 treats Dave 1 as the Alpha Dave (which he is), and as there is no conflict between Dave 1 and the universe's treatment of him, Dave 1 remains unscathed. However, Universe 1 ALSO treats Dave 2 as the Alpha Dave (which he is not), because for every universe there is only one discrete Dave, and therefore all Daves within that universe must by extension be That Dave.
But Dave 2 is not the Alpha Dave, despite the universe treating him as such. Thus, Dave 2 is now bombarded with two divergent sets of memories and experiences, both of which are "correct" — even though the nature of a yes/no decision is that both cannot be "correct" simultaneously.
Dave 2 is therefore left to reconcile the experience of having chosen both yes and no at the same juncture, remembering events that he both did and did not do. The human mind is not equipped to handle that level of juxtaposition, and the negative effects of the experience on the mind are usually both immediate and dramatic.
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ok i see
thats really clear thank you for the visual aids
i think theres a couple reasons it doesnt work like that with me/where i come from
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But my preliminary guess would be, if your immunity to the phenomenon is simply a natural condition of your universe, then it may also follow that the immunity is a constant in EVERY universe. If that's the case, then part of what makes a Dave a Dave to begin with is the fact that he can navigate parallel universes as he pleases with impunity.
...Which is FASCINATING to consider, if that's truly the case.
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though i think thats less a defining daveristic and more a feature native to any sburb or sgrub player
our set of universes were at a really primary level interconnected and interdependent and we all did our fair share of shuffling around from timeline to timeline and/or world to world
maybe coming from a universe whose parameters allow for multiple instances of a single variable (eg a dave or a potted plant) to exist simultaneously at least temporarily means that my existence doesnt feel that pressure to conform to any given universes alpha dave
i also dont think ruby city is necessarily a real universe
it feels more like a "space" between real constructs of time and space than a proper world all of its own you get me?
so i dont think it has its own alpha dave or has the ability to record what an alpha dave should be and thus cant force that alpha daveness on any daves who show up
does that make any sense
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However, the part I find curious is that as this city behaves like an empty container, that also means it's not recording a history to impress upon any subsequent iterations of you. You're not being bombarded with memories of interactions with people that you never conducted, even though a different version of you did, are you?
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the closest thing to that ive experienced is when one of those people talks about conversations they never had with me and thats just your garden variety socioexistential awkwardness
but im also used to that what with all my time travel
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I assume you've spoken to Rosalind about that before. She's a fair hand at keeping track of the timelines and the grammatical conventions both.
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but mostly on the stable time loop side of things
we havent gone over doomed timelines and how those work for me
im not sure she knows i can do those too if im not careful
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so within box one here ive got a couple examples of stable time loops
black is the normal course of time and red is my personal timeline
(im using red instead of blue for stable daves cause i like red better)
basically past me is going along minding my own business when suddenly EY YO heres a future me come back to let me know i left the oven on
past me goes oh snap and bounces to go enact basic fire safety while future me continues on his merry way in the present
eventually past me will reach on his own personal timeline the point where he becomes future me and thus goes back to warn HIS past me about the oven
so theres a stretch of time in which there are two mes hanging out in the same timeline but both of them are the alpha me because theyre both
uh
me
like theres no divergent experiences theres just a doubling over of my narrative thread
the thread is still one thread ive just put in a stitch
fair?
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So for the very first Dave, prior to the creation of the stable time loop, the oven was left on up until the point when the Dave designated as F!Dave realized it had been left on.
F!Dave then set out to remedy that problem by traveling back in time to a point shortly after the oven was left on, confronting P!Dave and alerting him to the staples of basic fire safety.
This initial first encounter has now both created a stable time loop but also collapsed the entire universe that followed from the possibility of the oven staying on. That is to say, Alpha Dave has the capacity to..."prune" possible offshoots to preserve and DEFINE the alpha timeline, is that correct?
no subject
because that very first dave is the exact same animal as past dave just further along in both normal and my personal time
so he also had a future dave come back to tell him he left the oven on
the important thing about a stable time loop is that im NOT changing anything
every time im going back in time to make something happen is something that has already happened from my perspective
so p!dave always goes back to turn off the oven because f!dave always LOOPS back to tell him hes a calamitous dumbfuck
this is really really really important
stable time loops dont change shit
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...One moment.
For ease of comprehension, I'm going to examine the timeline only up until the point when the Future Dave appears. Tell me if I have this correct.
Effectively, the universe has dictated that at this definite point in its timeline, a Future Dave will appear to the Dave of that present moment and warn him of the oven. There will always be a Dave. There will always be an oven. There will always be a prevented fire.
But by definition it cannot have been any Dave's DECISION to go back and prevent the oven fire, because rendering a decision at all would involve the possibility of a divergent universe. On the contrary, the universe simply stipulates that a Dave must appear from the future at this point in time — leaving you, the Dave of the present, to satisfy that condition at some point after you've proceeded beyond that point in time in the overall timestream.
...Does it not follow, then, that no Dave can be said to have free will?
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the answer is no but yes?
i mean theres never going to be a future where i make a decision i would never make
and obviously the whole infinite timelines thing means everythings always branching off infinitely so i do make every decision i COULD make
but isnt this the case for anyone?
once theres a future perspective doesnt that lock everyone into their present actions whether theyre aware of it or not
i dont know man this is getting into philosophical territory that made me stop using my powers for a damn long time cause i got really depressed about it
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Please, go on, Professor. I shall try to keep my questions to myself, until the end of the lesson.
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i mean its literally a thing i struggled with for years and never got a satisfying answer to since it freaked thirteen year old me out too much to think about head on
at least while i was a kid anyway
the peace i make with it now is that im committed to doing things i WANT to do instead of things i think i have to do so it doesnt matter whether or not i chose to because i at least WOULD choose it
anyway do i have to explain the second drawing inside box number one
its just an illustration of multiple time loops at once
thats how you can get thirteen versions of me existing in one slice of actual time yet theyre still all alpha me
theyre just on different points on my personal timeline
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Perhaps that's a concise summation of it. Every additional Dave that appears in a given point in time represents a commitment to BE that Dave at some point in your future. Yes?
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see youre not a bad study at all dr rolute
its all technically linear from my point of view
where it gets sketchy is when i do decide to change things
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...Oh. Oh, clever, because the both of us are — Ro-Lute, I see. Not unlike Ro-Lal, but more particular to us.
Moving on!
To change things would prevent events from remaining technically linear, I presume is the complication. As we've been discussing, changes create divergences.
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so the basic structure of what im thinking of looks something like this
since the nature of my powers is still technically linear its not like i skedaddle laterally to a parallel timeline
i mean ive never tried that so i dont know if i even could
if so id be jumping blind and that sounds like a completely dunderheaded thing to do
its more natural and definitely safer and confirmed possible for me to wind back to a moment just before whatever event it is im trying to change
so before the point of divergence
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I see the Dave of the "doomed timeline" goes back to before the divergence and counsels himself to continue on in a manner consistent with the Alpha Timeline, but then it seems he follows the Alpha Timeline for a spell until...?
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